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General
Topic: The ADPL affiliation


Moderated By: ChrisL, a_j_scott
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Author The ADPL affiliation

furrybeast
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
Posts: 7450
From: Aberdeen


ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 11:47

Folks, this is a big subject, so all your thoughts/views are more than welcome.

As you will know, our league have been affiliated to the SEPF (Scottish Eightball Pool Federation) for a number of years - around 11 if memory serves.

At the time, we were promised by the office-bearers of that organisation that "world rules" were the way forward, and that soon, all leagues in Scotland would be following suit. After much debate, and a very close vote, the motion was duly passed at the AGM and we became members of the SEPF. This wasn't to everyone's taste, as the playing rules were undoubtedly more complicated to learn than the old rules we were used to.

As the years passed the rules were learned and mastered, and the SEPF did a good job of bringing forward youngsters who had talent and introducing them to pool at the highest international level.

However, the squads for these international places were picked from a handful of affiliated leagues - so hardy representative of the best of Scotland (big fish in a small pond if you wish)

Over recent years, things have not quite been so rosy. The feelings of (most of) the players from the Aberdeen area has been that there was a strong bias toward players from the Fife area. This initially resulted in a split of the region between North and South so each region had a equal split of squad places. Whilst this may have cured the initial problem, it appears to have exacerbated the rift between the 2 areas over time.

Currently, things appear to have reached rock bottom. These is no communication from the SEPF committee, no schedule of events and most worryingly, no players from this area interested in taking international squad places (save a couple)

As someone who has always done what I felt was in the best interest of the ADPL, I feel it is time to restock and have a serious look at what the SEPF are offering us, both currently and long term. At the moment it looks pretty bleak.

The alternative would be to affiliate to the SPA (Scottish Pool Association) - to whom we were previously affiliated. This would mean a change in playing rules but would open up a huge variety of Scottish based tournaments/events, which we are currently barred from by their choice policy. The obvious drawback of this would be that most of the events are held in the central belt, where the majority of their players come from.

I'm going to cut my ramble here, and hope to get some pertinent comments or questions. Please fire away.

(please note this is my personal view and not necessarily that of any other committee members)




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Darties
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Joined: 06-Sep-2005
Posts: 757
From: Aberdeen


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 12:33

Im my honest opinion i do believe the SPA offer much more in the way of competitions and events which, although are played mostly in the central belt would benefit our top players.

I also believe that if we were to switch i do not think the south SEPF section would follow suit which would leave us slightly isolated up here. But we have got alot of players and if their worry was about traveling a long way to play in events, then we can make sure there is enough events such as a Aberdeen singles tour, with a tiered section to accommodate all playing levels, similar to the old Mike Clark tour (NSPT).

I recently went down the the SPA inter league and i have to say at no offense to the SEPF committee, the event was much bigger, better organised and just more fun.

Also about the rules, they are very easy to pick up as slightly similar to ours combined with the old rules. They place emphasis on potting and allow for fast games in most circumstances. I do however acknowledge that it would be a big change for the current international players who if they wanted to continue to play would have to do allot of traveling for tour events and qualifiers.


-----------------
Mon the Mill



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Ross
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
Posts: 925
From: Allstars


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 12:48

I'm with you George, the SEPF don't seem to be delivering much for this league and its top players to my eyes.

Although a change in rules probably won't appeal to the masses, the transition to Blackball rules would be far easier than any move to the previous rule set used by the SPA. As the Highland Masters 2010 thread has shown there are players in Aberdeen willing to travel to play blackball rules

If we want to be classed as Scotlands top pool league, which we might have been not so long ago but are no where near right now; joining the other top leagues in the country within the SPA might help.

We should at least take a look at what the SPA has to offer us



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Wayno
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Joined: 29-Jan-2005
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scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 13:46

I'm happy to play whatever rules the majority choose to use.



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titch1
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Joined: 14-Aug-2007
Posts: 846
From: aberdeen


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 15:00

I for one would be against a change to blackball, nothing against the rules but right now one of the problems is that people dont want to travel to far. That is why the region split and why people were not playing in events in peterhead, broch, ellon and so on. I certainly dont think alot of people would fancy going to glasgow for comps every few weeks i have played on the tour for a few years but i would stop if we changed rules due to the extra expense and traveling. Changes need to be made to the current set up, im sure everyone has their own ideas i certainly have plenty but one thing that has to happen is 1 or 2 people have to take charge of all north events and like george says improve communication with the south. I dont think i could commit to running it but i would gladly run events on the day if it helped.



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furrybeast
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
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From: Aberdeen


ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 16:08

At the moment, the only thing SEPF players travel to is the Interleague and the Scottish singles. International events are completely different - you EXPECT to have to travel.

There is nothing to stop the ADPL committee running a series of events purely for players from this area. In fact, my next item on the agenda is the setting up of a series of event, not related to the national set up, purely for players who prefer to play their pool at home, and home only.

Any player good enough to hold their own with the best players in the country, would be spoiled for choice as to which events to enter. Events which they are currently barred from entering.



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Spot
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Joined: 13-Oct-2004
Posts: 536
From: The wilderness


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 16:33

On 2009-12-30 11:47 , furrybeast Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!

F

As someone who has always done what I felt was in the best interest of the ADPL, I feel it is time to restock and have a serious look at what the SEPF are offering us, both currently and long term. At the moment it looks pretty bleak.

The alternative would be to affiliate to the SPA (Scottish Pool Association) - to whom we were previously affiliated. This would mean a change in playing rules but would open up a huge variety of Scottish based tournaments/events, which we are currently barred from by their choice policy. The obvious drawback of this would be that most of the events are held in the central belt, where the majority of their players come from.





Why is this considered the only alternative ?

the general consensus of the original question and the subsequent answers seem to ask what would happen from the top players viewpoint.Surely these players would travel to tournaments regardless of rules or location,because that is how they get to play for Scotland.Both rulesets have options of individual memberships,which these few top players could use.The majority of the players in the ADPL are not bothered with playing for Scotland,so do we have to be affiliated to anyone at all ?

Don't get me wrong,I am all for trying to advance the game of pool,especially if it means helping youngsters get involved etc,(most of you know my history with the SEPF - another story ),but would it help the ADPL,rather than just a few top players, to be affiliated to either federation ?

Please don't all have a go at this post,this is just another thing to throw in the pot and I only wrote it to highlight that affiliation is not the only option. :-D


-----------------
John Hay



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Ross
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
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From: Allstars


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 17:19

Sounds interesting to me Spot. What do the SEPF and SPA have to offer the ADPL and how does that benefit us as a league? If its just to be included in an Interleague competition is it worth it?

If not being affiliated leaves the door open for all our players to choose which side of the fence to sit then it sounds like a positive

How much dosh is it to be affiliated to either organization out of interest?

[ This message was edited by: Ross on 2009-12-30 17:22 ]



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johnnyboy
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Joined: 13-Oct-2004
Posts: 313
From: Portlethen


blank    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 19:22

well well well,wondered when this would come up.think weve bein down this road.and it was just a waist of time,as the spa did not treat the players up here like the players down there.yes thy are a good organized federation,miles better than sepf,at presant anyway.aberdeen players will have 2 travel a lot more down the road for tournaments,i dont think going 2spa is going 4ward,and yes the sepf has gone down a big hill..



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titch1
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Joined: 14-Aug-2007
Posts: 846
From: aberdeen


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 19:34

On 2009-12-30 16:08 , furrybeast Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!

At the moment, the only thing SEPF players travel to is the Interleague and the Scottish singles. International events are completely different - you EXPECT to have to travel.

There is nothing to stop the ADPL committee running a series of events purely for players from this area. In fact, my next item on the agenda is the setting up of a series of event, not related to the national set up, purely for players who prefer to play their pool at home, and home only.

Any player good enough to hold their own with the best players in the country, would be spoiled for choice as to which events to enter. Events which they are currently barred from entering.
Thats my point george the only thing people have to travel for is scottish singles and interleague and yet still the amount of people who pulled out of the interleague squad and the low amount of interest from this area in the last couple of majors held in fife doesnt suggest to me that you would get alot of interest in traveling to the other side of scotland every few weeks. Good idea about the events but isnt that what the tour is already? a north section for players who prefer to play in aberdeen only. just so happens you can qualify for the national side but that only affects the top players.



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Spot
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Joined: 13-Oct-2004
Posts: 536
From: The wilderness


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 21:31

On 2009-12-30 17:19 , Ross Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!



How much dosh is it to be affiliated to either organization out of interest?


?40 deposits are being taken for the SPA right now,if there are any places left,on a first come first served basis for the 2010 tour.

SEPF was ?20 affiliation fee plus pay at each tour or qualifier,?10 if I remember rightly MartinC ?

The SPA tour has already got some interesting names on it,list on Scottish8ball and the SPA site :-o


-----------------
John Hay



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furrybeast
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
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From: Aberdeen


ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-30 21:58

That's not an spa tour. Its independently run. I'll get a list of spa events to compare however



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furrybeast
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
Posts: 7450
From: Aberdeen


ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-31 09:40

On 2009-12-30 17:19 , Ross Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!



How much dosh is it to be affiliated to either organization out of interest?

Both are the same - ?50 per league, per annum



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Spot
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Joined: 13-Oct-2004
Posts: 536
From: The wilderness


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-31 18:41

Of course,if you are all that concerned about how you are being treated by the SEPF,you could go to the AGM and voice your concerns......... :-D :-D



7th Feb Styx.......


see you there    :-P


-----------------
John Hay



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furrybeast
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Joined: 11-Oct-2004
Posts: 7450
From: Aberdeen


ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2009-12-31 19:40

On 2009-12-30 19:34 , titch1 Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!

Good idea about the events but isnt that what the tour is already?


One question - what tour? - show me it on the 2010 calender...



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Darties
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Joined: 06-Sep-2005
Posts: 757
From: Aberdeen


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2010-01-01 12:16

If not being affiliated leaves the door open for all our players to choose which side of the fence to sit then it sounds like a positive


It does and it doesn't as the SPA will not let you enter any comps if you have any ties with world rules even if your not affiliated. I only mentioned to Ross mackinnis that i played world rules and he wasn't going to let me enter the singles at the interleague. So i think we would still have to change the rules for players to play in the events.


-----------------
Mon the Mill



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titch1
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Joined: 14-Aug-2007
Posts: 846
From: aberdeen


scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2010-01-01 12:51

On 2009-12-31 19:40 , furrybeast Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!

On 2009-12-30 19:34 , titch1 Wrote:

!!! QUOTE !!!

Good idea about the events but isnt that what the tour is already?


One question - what tour? - show me it on the 2010 calender...
Haha ok good point! ok probably going to get shot down here but this is my idea for series of events in aberdeen.

Based on 32 players joining the tour.

Each pays ?150 this covers 7 events.                

Money must be paid by start of event 2 otherwise debt suspended by the ADPL. Monies also withheld from 1st event if full payment not recieved by any player due prize money. If a player is going to miss an event they must let tournament director know by say 3 days notice otherwise fined ?20 (dabt suspended till paid). A replacement for any player missing can pay a ?20 entry fee for that event alone. Missing players list to be put on ADPL website 3 days in advance, replacement players taken on first come basis on website. Replacements get no ranking points.

First 6 events would NOT be seeded only seeded event is event 7. Ranking points to be worked on same basis as current tour.

Total prize money would be ?4800 (based on 32 players with no fines or replacements)

Breakdown of prize money;

For first 6 events ?550 prizemoney each event,

Losing quarter - ?20 (each)
Losing semi - ?70 (each)
Runner up - ?130
Winner - ?200

This should leave ?1500 for 7th event (again based on 32 players with no fines or replacements). Top 16 and bottom 16 split and play separate events. Both for ?750.

Breakdown of prize money for event 7;

Losing quarter - ?25
Losing semi - ?90
Runner up - ?170
Winner - ?300

Any player missing from event 7 would be able to be replaced but replacement would have to pay ?50 due to increased prize money.

Any extra money collected by sponsorship or fines would be split equally into both event 7's and prize money adjusted accordingly.

Matches would be race to 6 then 7 in the final for first 6 events then race to 7 and 8 in the final for event 7.

Fully expecting to be shot down for this but ithink it gives an incentive to so called lesser players with no seeded draws and a big money event with no top 16 players involved and it stops any time wasters who put names down for the tour and dont show up, at least this way we have all their cash anyway. Also it might start others coming up with some more ideas.



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furrybeast
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ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2010-01-01 13:10

Happy new year everyone!

Proudie is right - once you affiliate the rules would have to change.

However, players currently involved in the International set-up would still be allowed to represent Scotland, outwith Scotland i.e. euros/worlds. Thereafter though, qualification for the SEPF team would not be possible as playing in any w.r. tour events would be banned (unless they entered a tour as an individual, which would preclude them from any SPA events and the league)

International players on the SPA side are selected via their Individual membership tour rankings, which is extremely rigorously scrutinized - basically, if your results are good enough, you're in. (This may not have always been the case Johnnyboy - but I can assure you it is now)

From an organizational point of view, the individual Membership tour (I.M.) is a doddle for the leagues to arrange. All the name of players who wish to enter are submitted at one time and the SPA committee do the rest - i.e. all the local draws for each event, the pro-rate qualification, and all the ranking point calculations. (there were approx 800 I.M. members last year chasing only 128 places at each of the finals to give you an idea of the scale) - the cost of entry to the I.M. is only ?25 for all 5 events.

The prize breakdown for EACH I.M final is this -

Champion -    ?1,000
Runner-up -    ?450
Semi-final -    ?250
Qtr-final -    ?120
Last 16 -    ?70
Last 32 -    ?30
Last 64 -    ?10

So basically, ?5 entry with chance of winning ?1000 - compare that to the SEPF tour :-?



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furrybeast
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ussr    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2010-01-01 13:24

Our posts overlapped Tich - Nice idea - lot of thought gone into it but I feel the biggest stumbling block would be getting the 32 players to part with ?150 - looking at the combined Premier/Aberdeen tour I could pick maybe 6 players who would willingly stump up that kind of dough. My own personal charitable streak certainly wouldn't stretch that far!



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Macleod00
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scotland    avatar

posticon   Posted: 2010-01-01 14:02

Blackball rules are pretty poor to be honest. Much more luck involved with them. Not sure that they produce top level players either, given the dismal track record of top blackball players against top world rules players in challenge matches (played to blackball rules!)

I am aware that the the communication levels between the SEPF committee and the ADPL has broken down, which is disappointing. However, I do think that there is value in trying to fix the problem rather than affiliating to an organisation that BANS players from playing pool to other rules...

In fairness, the SPA do offer more in Scotland in terms of competitions which may be attractive to some ADPL players.



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Moderated By: ChrisL, a_j_scott
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